16:09:58 Hello my friend. Welcome to. Hi, welcome to the pretty decent podcast. How are you, thank you, I'm good, thanks for having me.
16:10:09 I'm good I'm coming out of hermit mode of school weekend so it's always kind of like feel like I'm like slowly crawling out of a hole but it's like, it's good I'm cutting out barely refreshed.
16:10:20 So, yeah, I definitely want to talk about the school they are doing. Um, I also want to first say, shout out to my mama, who, because this is not the first time that we have done this, we have done, remember we did the zoom link lunch break conversation
16:10:35 type thing I was doing at the beginning of the pandemic. Then we did an ID live. And when we did the ID live my imeem I listened to it and she described you as the type of person she would love to live next door to and chat with over the slushy sitting
16:10:50 by the pool.
16:10:51 I don't think you told me that you can hear me ma liked me but I don't think you told me the specifics and that is incredible. I thought it was like the perfect definition of you I was like, I think of it every time I think of you know, I looked it up
16:11:05 so shout out to me ma, ma, I listen to this episode. We love you.
16:11:10 We love you, um, alright cool so do I want you to start by maybe painting us a picture of where you are in the world. So, where are you and what are some things that you can see smell here and touch right now.
16:11:24 Whoo, fun. Um, so I am in Santa Cruz, California, United States of America.
16:11:33 I am in my bedroom currently sitting on my bed you're on a stack of my pillows.
16:11:39 I can see a plant, just over my computer just got a new really pretty plant that has a beautiful pink flower on it.
16:11:46 And I can hear fake traffic out the window a little bit down on the street.
16:11:54 And it smells really like crisp and clean because we just washed her sheets, so it's very nice in here.
16:11:59 And it's a really beautiful sunny day so there's like a beautiful blue sky out the windows and that's really lovely, I love it. California is very great here in Silver Spring, Maryland.
16:12:13 Amazing. And so what does life look like you look like for you right now I know that you are in school.
16:12:21 How has that been. Yeah.
16:12:25 Schools great i mean you know the first quarter was a little, a little rocky.
16:12:29 And people were asking me what school was like and I was like I don't really know yet. I'm kind of on the fence, I don't know, but this quarter, which is just started last week has been really incredible.
16:12:41 My professors are super engaging and young and radical and cool and the material that I'm learning this quarter so dope so I feel really like all my scholarly shit like that's where I'm really feeling right now like I, I was saying like I feel like I'm
16:12:57 a little bit in like hermit mode but I'm realizing that's like my that's my comfy place like I like to kind of be grounded in my own energy and like be in my home and be reading books and taking notes and having ideas and, you know, just feeling like
16:13:13 I'm really in tune with what's going on around me so my life right now really looks a lot like working on projects, and then reading a lot and doing a lot of kind of theorizing and then immediately putting it into practice with the projects I'm working
16:13:30 on so I'm in a really nice flow right now.
16:13:34 And love that smart girl, my girl shit.
16:13:41 I'm amazing so I wanted to when I was planning out podcast episodes. I was, you know, writing them on the board, and I wrote just community spaces with Linda, because that's just what I think I want to think of you and like all of the conversations that
16:13:54 we have.
16:13:56 I also was thinking about when I was thinking about what might grab my head said what me my head said, I was thinking about that metaphor that I feel like both of us have used from time to time which is this idea that we're just all like on the internet
16:14:08 yes but on that metaverse type of thing like I feel like if their internet did have neighborhoods that pretty decent interplay and outer work your community spaces, would be on the same block that it'd be like the same type of person tends to float in
16:14:24 between those, those three things to do you want to tell us a little bit about interplay and outer work and some of the community building you've done.
16:14:32 Yeah, for sure. My gosh. Okay, so on, all I'll say what they both are first because it started to get some real clarity around them lately, which has been so exciting.
16:14:43 So I think of interplay and outer work as being these two separate but very intertwined community spaces geared towards self liberation and collective liberation so interplay is a essentially like a self development club that's all about joy and healing
16:15:01 and self liberation through the practices of play creativity and self reflection and outer work is a Community Care Club that's all about creatively resourcing by pocket visions for social change.
16:15:14 And so, you know, you know as well as I do, because you've been with me along the journey of both of them, that they both started in places that were not necessarily community focused but have since.
16:15:38 Truly, I think to be these extremely community centered spaces.
16:15:33 That is primarily their function is to provide community for people. At this time, and that's really exciting for me.
16:15:41 Something that I kind of stumbled into but then I look back on my life and realize like oh wow I've actually been doing this kind of stuff for a really long time.
16:16:11 Even when I was like, you know, I used to be the director of marketing for events company, and it was essentially a community job like all I did was talk to people about the kinds of events we could put on together and promoted their events and it was,
16:16:14 you know, a company called conscious city guide that did conscious events that we planned retreats and things like that and I'm like oh I've just been doing this for a long time.
16:16:22 I think even back to high school like I was the club Commissioner, which is so funny to think about but I literally my job was to run all of the school clubs, and to like make sure that they were all like you know functioning properly and doing what they
16:16:35 needed to do to like get members and whatever so I've been doing this forever.
16:16:40 Yeah, and it's it's really fun to realize that this is like become my life now.
16:16:45 Yeah, those are my favorite moments like when you have those late the Steve Jobs quickly, connect the dots backwards like when you have those moments where you're like, Oh, this is the same thing I was doing for me I had that realization once.
16:17:01 I don't know why I never put two and two together but in college and my sorority, the people would pick what position you should be in like you are not a campaign for roles, they would pick it and kind of again.
16:17:15 And my sorority picked me to be the new member educator. And one day I was like member membership. Oh, it's like oh that was the same thing.
16:17:27 I didn't even realize it until that moment so it's funny but I wanted to ask you what you remember what are some of your earliest memories of community.
16:17:35 Being in community and then maybe in participating actively in community Yeah, it's all in high school for me.
16:17:44 So growing up, I was kind of a lone wolf, a little bit like I was not an only child, but my siblings are a lot older than me.
16:17:54 And so I grew up in the house by myself and I always was kind of like a mature kid so I never really liked, I never learned to like play or like, I don't know, do the things that the other kids were doing I'd hang out with the adult called the time.
16:18:07 And it wasn't until high school that I found like other people who I felt like were like me and my high school, I was middle school, high school and they did such a great job of bringing us together like just with different extracurricular activities
16:18:22 but like I even think about like being in photo class I was in the same photo class from like eighth grade through senior year of high school, and it was the same group of kids and we like had a dark room and we we spent all of our time there together
16:18:34 and like, there's just like little instances like that that I remember of like feeling like I was really in community with my with my prep family it's like a boyfriend says it's like a cult because me and my two best friends all went there.
16:18:48 We all live there and we constantly talk about our high school like we're obsessed with it, it was just like the best time. So I think that was really the first time I felt like I was part of like a big community was when I went there.
16:19:02 Yeah, I think you're also as the community builder, you're one of the only people in my life that I could talk honestly about my terrifying fear of accidentally starting a coat when it's like yeah I think it's like a natural ethical response when you're
16:19:19 Yeah, I think it's like a natural ethical response when you're creating shared norms and cultures and things to like want to not be terrified of, like I listened to the cultish podcast a lot because I listened to.
16:19:32 I think one of the things that that book in that podcast is done is like normalize that everything kind of toes the line. Yeah.
16:19:35 And it's just really the intent and the ethics of the leadership behind it but i don't know i do i, you were one of the first people that ever like named that and I was like oh yeah, I'm terrified of that too.
16:19:45 It's a big, it's a big thing and you know the best relief I found came from sharing that openly I shared that at like an interplay event I was like you guys I'm really terrified that I'm like starting.
16:19:58 One of my members Isa who's in interplay and outer work and is like super active in both and has become a really good friend, she was like, she was like you're not starting a call because you like help us to empower ourselves rather than take our power
16:20:12 away from us. And that really helped me because it made me feel like okay, if I can keep doing that, and I think I'm in the clear I think we're good, you know.
16:20:23 Mm hmm. And that is a perfect actually lead into one of I feel like my big thesis statement question for you, which is what role does community building play in self, and collective liberation.
16:20:36 Oh, goodness, what a quiet now. I know we can break it down or you want to but that's where I kind of where I wanted this to. That's the question I wanted that if I wanted to answer it I would go to you.
16:20:47 Yeah.
16:20:48 Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot actually because because of my program which I'll talk about in this answer and also, um, because I like to think of myself as a.
16:21:00 I've been saying kind of like back and forth like a de colonial community builder or like a libertarian community builder, they go hand in hand but we'll go with like libertarian libertarian community builder for the purposes of this conversation, because
16:21:14 I think it will help me to answer your question so when I think about, well, let's talk about like what community building is in general, which I think I like had been doing for like I said I've been doing it for a long time, especially in an airplane
16:21:28 outer work I've been doing it and then I went to my graduate program, which you already know but I'll say for everybody else listening is community liberation indigenous and eco psychologies.
16:21:41 So, essentially I'm becoming a community psychologist, but with a very intense focus on de Colonia ality.
16:21:48 And so I've been learning a lot about like what are the mechanics of community building, when we're talking about actually supporting people's well being.
16:21:56 And so that's kind of answer when you're talking about community building through the lens of supporting people.
16:22:03 What it really means is you're supporting their empowerment, you're supporting their well being and you're supporting their liberation.
16:22:12 And you can't do those things unless you're also looking at what are the root causes of what's causing them to not feel well what's causing them to feel disempowered what's causing them to feel oppressed rather than liberated.
16:22:25 So, they go hand in hand. We're talking about community building for self, or for collective because you can't really do one without the other. You can't just tell people, like oh we're going to come together and like talk about healing without talking
16:22:38 about like why it is that they need to be healed in the first place because of societal conditioning because of the structures of capitalism and colonialism and other things that harm them patriarchy etc.
16:22:49 that harm them. So they really do go hand in hand.
16:22:55 And there's something else was going to say about that.
16:23:00 Yes, self and collective liberation. The other thing I want to say is like when we're talking about community building for collective liberation specifically.
16:23:12 I think you have to also.
16:23:17 What I want to say here.
16:23:22 You know, I think that I said it.
16:23:25 You know, I think I heard it Yeah, they go hand in hand.
16:23:28 And there you can't you can't have one without the other. And I think about to like the work and inner plane outer work and that's why I always say they're separate, they're separate spaces we do different things in the spaces.
16:23:41 But in my dream world, everyone who's an interplay is an outer work and vice versa, because I think that people need space to focus only on themselves.
16:23:51 And then they need space to think about how what they're doing is affecting others, or what they're not doing is affecting others and to figure out how to do those processes in tandem.
16:24:05 And I think it feels like a big puzzle but it actually isn't because you kind of naturally have to involve yourself when you think about a collective, and you have to think about the collective when you're thinking about yourself because you're part of
16:24:18 it.
16:24:20 Yeah, yeah i i think the same way I think, like when I talked to people about the work that they wanted to do the creative work they want to do. It's very much intertwined with personal development and understanding because in order to understand the
16:24:36 role that you can play in somebody else's life which is really all that work is you have to first understand.
16:24:43 Like for me it's always that what do you secretly want to do all day. You know what would bring you joy, what can we remember that you've always been good at, and there actually is something to be found in it like how you were saying you've always been
16:24:54 good at community building right, um, yeah. I also been thinking about so I've been reading this book called thinking and systems, because as you know I'm like, I don't know what that I don't remember what that word is but it's like the self funded self
16:25:12 self funded academic that's why I always call it I'm like, eventually, I'm going to go back and get another degree probably but for now I'm just going to read a bunch of stuff.
16:25:22 been thinking about this idea that like in order to know what's wrong, what's causing a problem you have to figure out where in the system.
16:25:35 It's coming from. So you have to be able to see the system and all of the various parts of a system in order to diagnose a problem, and how true that is like everything.
16:25:46 Um, I don't know how that's related but that's what that made me think of, Um, so what kind of world.
16:25:54 What kind of world I wanted to say what kind of world do you want to help, maybe co create but I also am kind of wondering what kind of world might be possible.
16:26:03 If we are all, or if, let's just say if all of the people in a community even. We're committed to both self and collective liberation.
16:26:13 Yes, okay.
16:26:15 You're reminding me of the other thing I was going to say before to. This is great.
16:26:20 I was going to say is, you know, in talking about like D colonial community building.
16:26:28 What comes up is, why does community even matter in the first place right and i think that's kind of getting at, what your question is of like what could the world look like if we did this right.
16:26:42 And the reason is because, as human beings like our innate nature is in community. We are tribal creatures. We are relational creatures and so this relates a lot to decoupling ality because of course colonialism strips that away from us and it tells us
16:27:00 we have to be individuals and you think about the structure of capitalism and how we're supposed to it's like every man for himself. Bob's, which we all know is harmful on a million different levels.
16:27:11 But if we look at any of our ancestries, and some of us, for some of us it's more immediate than for others. Right. But if we look at any of our ancestry is pretty colonialism pre industrialism.
16:27:24 We all come from these relational communities where people cared for one another and their quote unquote jobs were just to do the things absolutely necessary for life to sustain life.
16:27:37 And so that's my vision of the world.
16:27:41 And this is the thing that's like reinforced to me, 5 million times a day through my schooling but it's like the the vision that I hold for the world is that we go back to that to some degree, to the degree that we can.
16:27:55 Having experienced the last several hundred years of colonialism enough capitalism capitalism, we can't go back in time, but we can move forward with a more of a balance of relation ality so that we're spending less time in the economy, like just kind
16:28:12 of producing endless things, and spending more time taking up space with care. And like doing the things that we need to absolutely support one another I was telling a coaching client yesterday, this thing I read.
16:28:32 It's called epistemologies of the heart. By forget his first name his last name it seen. And it was just a short article but it was essentially him talking about how in the, there's a movement called this up, it still movement and essentially what it
16:28:45 is is this movement to reclaim digital identity and in Latin America. And what he talks about is like the the ways of knowing of the heart, are these modes of care and so like to practice the commonalities just doing things like growing food or practicing
16:29:04 herbal ism or helping give birth to babies like the things that like literally like everyone needs, and that we can all kind of learn to do to support one another's lives.
16:29:16 So, yes, and my dream world it's like we move towards a future that's like way less technology driven and way more driven by one on one support and group support for people for life, that's the that's the vision of of community for me and the kind of
16:29:33 ideal, and in why I think that this community building matters so much because we can create that in small ways. Now, we don't have to like abolish everything first we can start just doing that in our daily lives individually.
16:29:49 Yeah. I'm curious about what you said about taking up space with care.
16:30:02 Are there practices for that like is that something that we can practice in our own life is that something that, you know, can be measured in a way I guess is what I'm wondering how much Yes, am I taking up and how do I know if I'm doing it with care.
16:30:12 I mean that's community care that's like cultivating a practice of community care is the place to start. That's the whole purpose of outer work at this point in time is like, I want to help people create a practice for caring for others, and doesn't have
16:30:29 to be through outer work. There's a million ways to get involved. I mean, I was in a class last week and my professor was saying that someone tried to chart out like I think some Professor somewhere in the UK tried to create a list of of movements like
16:30:45 of organizations who are participating in social movements and gave up after 100,000, like after listening at 100,000 so there's at least 100,000 organizations in the world that are participating in social movements of some kind, like, find one, you know,
16:31:01 I think if everyone did that it would be absolutely like just remarkable what we could accomplish, but I think people feel really overwhelmed and confused by where to start.
16:31:14 And I get that, like I, I get that because that's something I struggled with for a really long time is like where do I fit into social change. But we all have a role to play, there's all we all have like some issue that we're passionate about if we really
16:31:29 think about it. We all like get fired up about something, and we all have skills.
16:31:36 We can offer to movement. So I think that's the way to think about it is like what resources do you have. What do you care about and how can you like merge those two things together.
16:31:46 Um, as far as being able to really measure it. I don't really think that there's a way to be honest, I think it's, it's going to fluctuate. I don't know that you know used to say that I wanted people to be sustained sustained in their commitment to anti
16:32:00 racism that was the original goal of outer work, but I've had conversations with people recently that have made me understand that, like sustainability.
16:32:09 When it comes to community care work is actually quite.
16:32:15 It's just, it's quite like
16:32:19 amorphous, it's not really like a real thing like what does that really mean to be sustained because at the end of the day, it's going to fluctuate based on the needs of the people that you're supporting based on your energy levels.
16:32:33 I think it's important that people care for themselves and take breaks when they need to and come back to the work when they can so I think that, you know, There's, there's always going to be something to do.
16:32:44 There's always going to be another, another action to take another thing to learn and it's just a matter of like supporting yourself enough goes back to the, to the self and collective liberation thing.
16:32:57 It's a matter of supporting yourself enough to be able to keep returning. I think that's all we can hope for, really.
16:33:02 Yeah.
16:33:05 And I think that framework of what resources do you have and what do you care about, that feels like very helpful, you know, something that somebody listening could go and do on a piece of paper.
16:33:16 Yeah, to just two sides of a coin and look at. Yeah.
16:33:21 There was something else I wanted to ask you about that you had just know the the study the hundred thousand plus.
16:33:29 Social Care Organizations that feels so optimistic to me. Yeah that is such an optimistic figure. Hmm.
16:33:36 What like and I feel like we optimism, I'm perpetually optimistic Sagittarius so you know I'm an optimist as Nicki Minaj sets.
16:33:51 Right there. But I feel like there's a lot of, I feel like, you know, you only have to go on the internet for so long before you find a certain degree of like pessimism, especially about the way that we care for one another as a community, because we
16:34:05 don't see it as much. I don't think so.
16:34:09 Yeah, I guess it just what are your thoughts on on that and what role. I do personally consider yourself optimistic or is there another word that best describes your assessment.
16:34:22 Hmm, that's a good question. I do consider myself an optimist, I really do. Um, but I think I'm an optimist realist. And I don't know if that's a real thing.
16:34:32 I think often, people think, if you're optimistic your idealistic and therefore like disconnected from what's really happening in the world.
16:34:40 But I am just someone who does believe in the capacity of people to be greater than they even think it is. I mean that's like my role is like a coach and as a guide of any kind, like I have to hold that view, and I do which is why I do what I do.
16:34:59 But, I agree, like, that gives me a lot of hope, too. And I think it says, it's a careful line to balance here's why I say I'm an optimist realist because I think that, like, We're fucked.
16:35:18 Be real, especially when it comes to the climate. I just read a great book called The civilization is finished, which daunting title, very dark read like true content morning if you're sensitive about like climate anxiety, but was really very actually
16:35:31 very eye opening very liberating for me to read and a lot of reasons I'm not super well versed in in the climate crisis.
16:35:44 But this book was a conversation between two philosophers who are very involved in the climate crisis.
16:35:46 And basically, I'm saying this for a reason. But basically, the the kind of just of the book was like, there's very slim chance that like we're going to be able to change people on such an ideological level quickly enough to like completely save the planet,
16:35:59 it's just not really going to happen at this point and I say that because I think the rhetoric around the climate crisis is that that's going to happen.
16:36:09 Like, if you look at any sort of climate organizations today, that's the goal is like we're going to get everyone on board with changing, you know, making sure that we go completely carbon neutral and we're going to like, you know, reverse the warming
16:36:22 of the planet and those things aren't going to happen, like, pretty, like you look at the science. And so, but this book was saying like, but what's probably going to happen is like we're going to experience a lot of disasters like there's going to continue
16:36:36 to be extreme weather events and things like that.
16:36:39 But what we can do is like take those moments of crisis and learn from them, and start building community and supporting one another through those kinds of things, and through those disasters, we probably will come out the other side more resilient, if
16:36:53 we're willing to like pay attention. So that's why I say like for me, that's the optimism realism line. It's like let's be real about like where we're at, but let's also like have faith that bad things are going to happen, and we're going to learn and
16:37:09 grow from them. You know, I think, I think about that in terms of my life and I think about the world too. So I was gonna say I think that applies on a macro and a micro level, that kind of philosophy about that.
16:37:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:37:27 I feel like you're also kind of a walking resource hub right now, no brain of yours.
16:37:36 Like a little library in there. Yeah, I mean that's amazing though Do you, I guess I'm, you know i'm also just curious about like your personal experience going through all of this deep intense learning I feel like you're in a very deep learning phase
16:37:53 life, and how I guess one How have you been balancing that with, you're kind of doing a, you know, you're kind of doing a lot of the same time. How are you balancing your personal, you know, learning, and, kind of, I guess, academic journey with your
16:38:13 entrepreneurial journey or your business ownership journey with your. I guess personal spiritual yeah and Community Care journey. Yeah.
16:38:24 You know, I think, see all the things as being the same thing, which is maybe what saves me a lot of ways, and I don't really feel overwhelmed or busy ever.
16:38:43 I refuse stress, I like hate, I just I refuse to be stressed, I say it all the time it's like the motto of our household, because it's just useless to me.
16:38:44 But that being said, I have to, I do have to battle with myself sometimes to remember that like everything doesn't have to get done today.
16:38:55 I'm done that, That's okay.
16:38:59 Um, I tried to just show up for what's most important and most pressing, and that's really all I can do is what I've learned.
16:39:08 Do I wish that like inner and outer work we're growing exponentially right now of course but I also recognize that I made like a vow to myself when I started this program like I was like, I'm going to this program and I'm going to be building a quote
16:39:23 unquote career for myself through this program.
16:39:27 And I'm giving myself that space to like build it and I'm only like five months into my program so it's fairly new, five months into five years. So, it's fairly new, and I'm just trying to give myself space like I honestly that's all I feel like I can
16:39:44 do for me it's all about mindset, always like, I'm just in a mindset where I'm like, I'm going to be patient with myself and I'm going to give myself grace.
16:39:54 And I'm going to get done what I can. And I'm going to do everything in the simplest way possible which something you taught me.
16:40:02 Lovely I love on complication exam. Yeah. Do you ever.
16:40:08 Do you ever use like an archetype like are you ever like today I am. Sometimes I'm Elle Woods night like I was just at the gym actually right before this I was, I was like writing my little notes about what I was going to talk to you about on the treadmill
16:40:22 like like again like I love this movie.
16:40:28 Do you find yourself, I guess what is it What's your aesthetic right now. Yeah. how do you feel love that you asked that.
16:40:36 Because I'm actually, that, that feels like a missing puzzle piece for me right now. And I think it is the I was just telling my friend this last night like I think it is because I'm taking in so much information and I am in this like giant shift in my
16:40:48 consciousness. So like, I don't really know like who I am or what I'm, it's very like day to day for me, which is kind of always how I've been like I feel like I dress like a cartoon character like I like dressing like little, you know like, I play a
16:41:01 different role, how I dress a lot. Um, but lately I've just been like, just feeling like I'm like I don't really know who I am and it's not like a bad feeling, but it is weird for me like I don't feel super connected to that.
16:41:19 I think the other part of it is like being in the surge right now of Covidien like having to scale back on social interactions again and, and also living in Santa Cruz move away from most of my like IRL community.
16:41:33 I don't have like those people to like bounce myself off of, you know, when I'm like, when I was living in LA and I was like seeing my two best friends every week and, you know, going to coffee shops every day and like going to events all the time like
16:41:47 I had a whole persona, based on the person that I was and you have mirrors, exactly people that can mirror you back to you oh I'm going through that big time which is the role of community is to be your mirror.
16:42:02 And then they also been thinking about a lot.
16:42:03 That makes a lot of sense. Yeah we fight.
16:42:07 Go ahead and think of.
16:42:09 No, I was just gonna say I think of my brain is just one big Tumblr. Yeah. Essentially, but there's like one screenshot that I have in some folder maybe in my favorites folder on my phone and it's like a screenshot of today I go and big shot like Janko
16:42:25 commenting, or Big Sean commented on something of hers and then like he said like your beautiful or something and she said, baby I'm just your reflection.
16:42:34 And I screenshot at it and just kept it so I was like that's like the nicest thing that you could say back to like a compliment, like I'm just your reflection.
16:42:43 And I guess, you know, potentially one of the more painful things you could say back to somebody who was being unkind to you. Yes, um, Yeah, that,
16:42:57 you know, if you can manage it right without sounding like you're just walking.
16:43:03 Instagram therapy meme. Yeah, it's true though, you know, you think about like think about like a pretty decent community like like people who are showing up looking for someone to your back to them that their business owner that they're an entrepreneur.
16:43:17 Same thing was interplay it's like you show up and you're going to get mirrors there you're going to like remind you that you're on a self development journey and outer work it's that you're on a community care journey.
16:43:27 You, that's what communities are for you show up for the spaces where you're going to get the identity that you're looking for, mirrored back to you.
16:43:35 Oh wow. Right.
16:43:38 That's wild yeah that's mind blowing. Yeah, that's really, really. Yeah, I don't want to say, yeah, that's.
16:43:46 Oh, that's like shifting my brain right now. I feel some type of connection happening. Yeah, that makes sense because you go into community, you know, even if I, if I were to go and get sign up to get a Masters right now, which I want to do.
16:44:03 I don't know in what yet but in some time I want to do a deeper type of study. Yeah, I'm just honestly because I like studying, and if I were to do that.
16:44:11 I would do it with the intention of being a also around people who also care deeply about this thing. And to me, I would always think like oh I want to be in conversation I want to have really great teachers but it's, it is that they reflect back to me
16:44:26 my curiosity and passion. That is really cool. Yeah.
16:44:33 So, really.
16:44:35 Yeah. And so, I know that we had talked a little bit about.
16:44:43 You want to like your work with companies and brands or maybe helping people facilitate their own. I know that you work with community builders.
16:44:52 And so, I'm also wondering, as a community builder.
16:44:56 If there's anything that you wish you saw more of in the communities that people build or practices that would make them more liberal story, you know, because I think a lot of people, a lot of people I talked to you because I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs.
16:45:14 I find that to be one of the biggest motivations of entrepreneurship is I want to build a community of people who want to talk about personal development you know it's that same thing they want them there.
16:45:27 Yeah. So yeah, is there anything that you wish, you know that you any Sage wisdom, you would give community builders. yeah okay sorry potato in appearance.
16:45:53 Yeah, I actually wrote a paper on this for my last quarter, that was about how to build D colonial communities, build the colonial community spaces so the way that I think about this, I'll say this. There's a lot of like, There's like a Tetris of frameworks
16:45:56 in my brain that are like shuffling around I think it's helpful to lay out what those are. So first of all, when we're talking about community building and when I talked about it and when I do work with people on it.
16:46:07 It's typically working with individuals who are thought leaders who are knowledge workers have some clients who want to build a community around the topics they want to talk about, or it could be working with brands who are trying to build community amongst
16:46:20 their customers. It could be organizations trying to build community amongst the people that they're trying to serve.
16:46:27 So that's just to give you an idea of like who I'm talking about. And then the other kind of framework that I think about is like what are the stages of community building.
16:46:37 So I think there's a, there's an intention setting phase of like, what are you as the community builder looking to put into the world, what do you what do you, what is your purpose and building this community.
16:46:49 Right, it's the why of the community.
16:46:52 And maybe the who have who who you really envisioning being there. And then there's like a listening phase of trying to figure out what it is that the community really needs like how are you going to fill that purpose.
16:47:05 Then there's a designing phase of what do you, it's you know it's what you talked about the offer design, essentially, in my mind, it's more of like a, like a programming design because I think, at least in the way that I like to build community it's
16:47:19 usually through events or content or things like that so it's it's programming.
16:47:24 Um, and then there's a phase of like the member engagement like keeping people interested, actually, before that one sorry before that one there's the talking about your, your programming, how you're going to get people to come in and build it, you know
16:47:35 the marketing so to speak.
16:47:38 And then it's the keeping people engaged, the engagement piece. And then lastly, kind of, depending on what your goals are motivations might be it could be like evaluating the work you've done and iterating upon that.
16:47:50 So, essentially, the paper that I wrote and the way that I think about this when working with people is about how we can build laboratory de colonial sustainable well being oriented community design into each of those steps.
16:48:07 So, I mean there's like a million things I could say, and it's going to vary based on the group that I'm talking to or the person that I'm talking to right but to speak broadly.
16:48:17 One is in that person's intention setting in that first like purpose building.
16:48:24 I think the thing that has to be done to make it laboratory to make it D colonial is to make it just is to have a goal that centered around care, like what we talked about before.
16:48:37 How are you actually planning on caring for people like if your purpose doesn't involve offering people care in some way, then it's just not liberal story, or D colonial.
16:48:49 Then, in this listening phase, that's like, that's the most like clear cut answer because, like in community psychology work and. And I think this echoes probably a lot to work what you talk about to in like offer design work.
16:49:01 It's like, you have to listen to what people are saying you have to know like what you what your what your quote unquote consumer or your audience or whoever you want to call it your community.
16:49:13 What they are in need of what they're wanting what their vision is for themselves for the world, you have to be listening to those kinds of things.
16:49:21 Otherwise you're building something for yourself and not for other people.
16:49:25 And you're not building with other people, which is the most important thing you cannot like build community for someone you build it with them right that's what the people at one company say, but that's actually like a number one tenant of community
16:49:36 psychology as well.
16:49:39 Um, participatory action.
16:49:41 Then you go into like the designing phase so you you set a purpose that's centered around care and you listen to what people are really needing and wanting and so forth.
16:49:51 And then you're in this design phase where you're like okay well how are we going to build these programs, if you want to do that decline, D colonial Lee or in a laboratory way you do that again with the people that are in your community, you talk to
16:50:04 them about what do they want to see what's going to really support them.
16:50:09 And, honestly like in my own work that has been the thing that has made so much difference, not only in like the quality of the community that I've built but also for me.
16:50:20 Like, it's helped me to feel so much less pressure so much less overwhelmed around like is this thing I making the right thing for everyone is everyone going to be happy about are people going to show up.
16:50:31 If you just talk to people about what they want and they tell you well I want to have a space to show up in, like, read a book, then you have build that in and you know people are going to come because you gave it to them.
16:50:41 And it makes them feel involved, and they are involved in their community as much as it is yours right so that's super important.
16:50:50 Um, and then in terms of like talking about what you're doing and getting people involved.
16:50:55 I think for me, that's the thing that I think people get tripped up on the most because it feels so vulnerable right to like marketing of the thing you're doing.
16:51:03 But again, I think it's about.
16:51:05 If you're, if you're trying to do it in a way that centers care and centers people's freedom. What that really means is like.
16:51:14 Sorry, excuse me.
16:51:16 Okay. What that really means is like just talking about the thing and allowing for people to resonate with it or not, like, I think for me, that's the stage where I have to like shut down strategic thinking a little bit and just be like, Okay, this is
16:51:32 what I'm doing. This is why I'm doing it. This is who's involved. If this sounds like something you want to do, come join us. Mm hmm. And just be able to trust that people who are going to come come because I think when you start to borrow on that edge
16:51:43 of like trying to convince people that becomes a little bit less de colonial becomes a little bit less libertarian it starts to have those like edges of oppression where you're trying to like conquer people embrace their objections.
16:52:03 Yeah.
16:52:10 Yeah, I, I also what what came up for me too because I felt I do a lot with the marketing phase. Um, but I wonder if what's happening when people get really tripped up is that they're starting at the wrong stage right so if you start with marketing and
16:52:18 that's I think a lot to do with intention to because if you go into a lot of very popular sales and marketing programs, right, the ones you know you and I both have been an entrepreneurship industry for a long time.
16:52:32 So if you go into the entrepreneurship industry into a lot of maybe less intentional programs. One of the things you're going to find it quickly is like omega, make a group so that you have a bunch of warm leads.
16:52:45 And that's a very different thing than making a group so that you can connect with people are making groups of four, so that you can care for people I feel like often the care it's an afterthought after the strategy so if you're leading with marketing
16:52:58 strategy.
16:53:00 Instead of leading with care. If you're leading with capitalism, or money you know before you leading with care. It's also.
16:53:08 It makes me think of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation because it's so much less motivating like I would not like my business, if it was only about making sales, because I probably I don't I also couldn't How would I know that the people joining my programs
16:53:23 were people that I actually liked you know what I mean I think one of the great things about.
16:53:28 Yeah, is that you get, you know, about putting a little bit more care into it, even if it is slower, which is a big thing, which is a thing that I've experienced and I know you've experienced even if it is slower as we build out the systems because when
16:53:43 you get to that phase where you said marketing you have to kind of take the strategy out for me, that's when I just need a system like that is the point where it's just how do I automate introducing myself and my work to other people.
16:53:56 So, email, you know, you know, quick little landing pages like quick little sale systems That's for me where that comes in and that's why I really like systems, because it's like oh, I can say hello to everybody, you know, in the same way, in a nice way
16:54:11 and and not you know in a thoughtful way or whatever it might be. Well I think to the differences like using what I tried to the different is like building community as a product, because I think that's what we're talking about is like.
16:54:27 The thing that I sell is a community space, versus generating a community to sell them something else. And hey, I think there's a difference between those two things.
16:54:38 I'm not really interested in the latter right like I'm not like. That's why I'm like, I yeah like I'll work with people who are trying to like, you know, build community for their audience, but I'm going to do it in a way that's like, this isn't about
16:54:52 you, bringing people in to try to sell them something this is about you taking care of your people.
16:54:59 For the sake of and they're going to trust you, right, because that's your responsibility. And if they then trust you and they like you more because of it.
16:55:08 Great, and they want to buy something from you later on. Awesome. but that's not what we're building community for, you know, there's a difference, there is a big audience.
16:55:17 Yeah, that's a really big difference I think a lot of them, you know again like contemporary community building strategy or advice revolves around segmenting off a section of people right so if I go and start a Facebook group, and I call it, you know,
16:55:35 advice, you know the marketing advice for, I don't know, whatever artists and creatives, and I get people in and and that's the you know the reason that I'm doing that is to enroll them into a different program because I like on one level I'm like, oh
16:55:52 yeah that makes sense strategically.
16:55:57 And uh maybe it's just that.
16:55:59 I don't know maybe it's just that it's not the forefront of that equation or that there's practices built into care for those people.
16:56:08 First, you know before all of the the sales starts like I do wonder about where that balance happens.
16:56:16 Because at the same time it is.
16:56:20 It is a, you know, it is a strategy, I guess that's where I struggle with it because I can't ever see the strategy. Right.
16:56:28 Yeah, yeah.
16:56:40 Okay, so I guess what I'm thinking so I use. I have the map that Delia made me now.
16:56:48 And I have the.
16:56:51 I made, making it literal I'm just going to pull it up for me and you. I can maybe attach it in the show notes for people listening.
16:56:58 But I show people this map, when I'm talking into, and selling effectively, you know membership.
16:57:05 I start you know we have a community space that is open the same way that a cafe is open if you want to buy a coffee. Sure, but like you can also just sit here and read and so we have co working we have the bulletins channel.
16:57:17 We have recommendations we have this, and that's what I that's what the slack is, to me, is this big community space so that's the place where I'm like, what's your top three, or you know or sharing interesting podcasts and like inviting people in, but
16:57:31 a natural part of that strategy is also letting people know that there is a private space as well. Yeah. And there is the membership in the study and that's where you're going to get the live classes and the massive library and all of those things.
16:57:47 And so when I tell people about it. I mean, I try to be intentional and saying like, There's no rush you know I stopped closing the doors, because I felt like I was, you know, manufacturing, a sense of urgency that didn't mean to be there, and kind of
16:58:03 doing those things but still wanted I mean the cafe existed before the membership so the cafe was always going to exist but the cafe now also serves as the beginning of, you know, as the lead magnet.
16:58:16 Right, right. And and it triggers a but, you know, an email campaign that does sell the membership. So that's where that's where that's my tangible example right so you have, it's essentially two communities basis, there's a community space that acts
16:58:29 as a lead magnet and there's a community space that is the offer. Right.
16:58:34 And so, so then what's the question, like how do you make the lead magnet one feel more D colonial or care centered.
16:58:42 When it is actually like a place to warm people up. Yeah, offer value for value. And that's what you do. Yeah, you're still offering care to people.
16:58:52 Because you're giving them a space where they can be mirrored, they can see themselves reflected back by the other people that are in the space, you're offering them a space where they can talk things out with each other, they can get support they can
16:59:04 get advice they can share ideas they can do certain things.
16:59:10 But I think that's the, that's the key, because if you're just bringing people into a space and you're saying like, I'm controlling and like what would be an example of like a lead magnet community space that wouldn't be care centered, you know, And I
16:59:26 think it wouldn't be care centered, if it was like you know you're just funneling people into a place and you're just constantly selling at them.
16:59:33 You know, like you're constantly being like this is what I'm offering today this is what I'm offering today. Here's a testimonial here's this Don't you want to do this, don't you want you know what I mean.
16:59:40 But you're giving people like something that's just valuable for me. Yes, it's a lead magnet, but I wouldn't even think of it that way. Yeah, like I would just think of it as like a.
16:59:52 It's just an alternative community space that's free, like it's just the, just the free version of the space and a lot of ways, it's kind of like you have a sliding scale offer right and then like the one that's free just doesn't include access to that
17:00:08 other space, but once you start paying you get access to that other space too. And you get more care, and more focus on you, more mirrors, more whatever however you want to look at it.
17:00:19 Yeah. I mean, it makes me want to add more care. And, you know, I think also some of the most tangible or popular entrepreneurial advice is not to give too much away for free and I think what I'm taking away from this conversation is like that's almost
17:00:37 impossible. Yeah, like you can't care too much for people. I think that, and I I have always not believed in that I've always thought maybe like I've always thought that that would come back like it would be like yeah, it's making me want to add more
17:00:53 care, give it away for free and that's what I think.
17:00:57 I'm also like a prudent and anti capitalist.
17:01:03 But, yeah, give it away for free, like, life's hard enough, like, I think the least we can do is give people community.
17:01:13 You know, and we have to survive, which is why we have paid offers to.
17:01:17 Yeah, but it doesn't hurt us like you saying it's going to like build trust it's going to build, compassion, it's going to build relate ability with these people who could eventually become paying members one day.
17:01:32 Um, but ultimately you're just putting more good into the world, which I think is never a bad thing.
17:01:38 Amazing.
17:01:41 All right, let me look back at my question list for, you know, one thing I did want to ask you about is what you had, what you wish you'd known before.
17:01:54 Kicking off.
17:01:56 Specifically, I guess, your community spaces, because I feel like I'm also to contextualize I think people listening will most likely be people who have creative businesses or people who want to start creative businesses that tends to be my pool of people.
17:02:14 Yeah.
17:02:16 So what do you wish you know you have a very creative business, you know, you're very, especially a very creative businesses because they saw very specific problems and that to me is creativity period, what do you what do you wish you'd known.
17:02:31 Um, y'all came up immediately was like I wish I knew that I was building community spaces West.
17:02:36 Because neither one of them started that way, which, you know, it's not like I have any regrets about the path whatsoever. Um, but interplay started is, like, I mean you were like an OG member, and it started as me, like posting blog content behind a
17:02:54 paywall every month and then I realized, oh maybe these people like want to talk to each other, who are reading this information and then, of all slowly into a community space and that is like the main focus of what we do now.
17:03:05 And same thing with outer work, like it was a space where I was sharing as you remember like a thing every single day, related to anti racism, and I was writing every day.
17:03:17 And it was great that was like so good for me. And we built a huge audience really fast because of the time in which it launched and what whatever but I didn't realize I was building a community space.
17:03:29 And so it's taken me, it's been a very like up and down bumpy road I think to like get there for me especially without her work of like, Oh, that's what I'm doing like I'm actually building a space for people to come together and like work on community
17:03:43 care.
17:03:43 care. But I didn't realize that and so that road was hard.
17:03:48 You know, so I would say I guess it's like thinking about like the people who might be listening to this, like, if you want to build a community, build a community, think about like what the steps are to building a community like the steps I just named
17:04:02 and think about how to be intentional in each of those phases.
17:04:07 And I think if you go into it with that intention, it will just be a much smoother ride, rather than thinking like, Oh, well I'm gonna like like thinking of it as like oh I'm building like a course or oh I'm building like, you know, it could be anything.
17:04:21 It could be like, I'm building like a series of events programming or I'm, I'm building like I guess I said course and in my mind it was like a live course like a thing on zoom but it could also have been like a written course or whatever it is, if you
17:04:34 go into it thinking like I'm building a community space that's going to offer this course it's going to offer this content is going to offer these events, then I think it switches your frame of mind a bit to be able to think about how to generate a good
17:04:47 group of people who are going to respond to whatever you throw at them.
17:04:51 Not just building a thing that's like you're gonna have to keep rebuilding it over and over again right like you would if you built a series of courses.
17:05:00 Yeah, make sense. Yeah, I think I would I what I heard was if you want to build a community build a space like build a community space like that I think about the container.
17:05:12 And your, your phases of human building reminded me a lot of design thinking, and that I get that, like, you know, just core entrepreneurship principle that you don't make things until people tell you that they need them.
17:05:25 Yeah, because it's a waste of resources your time, your energy, money, whatever it is, it's a, it's not a waste maybe.
17:05:33 But it's not a healthy investment maybe let's say yeah, and so it doesn't you know create as rich of a soil as doing something in response to what somebody has told you that they mean, like, yeah, that's something else I wish I knew before I think because
17:05:51 I've been there, like I've planned so many events and courses and things that either never off the ground or I got them off the ground and they didn't perform how I wanted them to because I just did them from a place of my own overthinking rather than
17:06:05 like talking to my community, and hearing from them directly what they need. Yeah.
17:06:12 Makes me want to go and slack right now and be like, what events do what do it, what do you want to talk about, you know, yeah, you have a contender. And that's all.
17:06:24 Yeah.
17:06:24 And that's that co creative element that I learned from you and I learned from Nina ever flow, because I think we you and I had very similar journeys I started pretty decent I was like oh I'll upload one recorded course, you have a week you know when
17:06:49 less than a week and then that last one of dream work life that you were in. We, I was like oh let's do it live so that we can talk about what we've learned in the course and it was like the best one. And it was so much easier for me to I'm just a huge fan of live.
17:06:55 You know live teaching at because it's also just intuitive it's like how classes work. Yeah. Most of the time, asynchronous, I do think there's, there's really good places where asynchronous classes works.
17:07:09 But most of the time I think it's better to be able to answer questions in real time, thousand percent. Yeah, I think, I mean, especially working with creative people who are I think tend to be bouncing around a lot or tend to like have a million thoughts
17:07:24 at one time or projects going like I know for myself. I cannot show up for recording, something, it's so hard for me I'm like Oh watch it later I never watch it.
17:07:34 I just can't. So having something live again that's like, that's catering to your community if you know that, here's the thing if you know that about yourself, if you're a person like that, the chances are people in your life are also like that.
17:07:46 I don't know what it is, like I wish I could enter your knowing yeah the mirror for sure but like I know why it is that the people around you are like that but I mean like, why is it like what is the characteristic of person that struggles showing up
17:08:04 something recorded I wonder. Maybe it's, everyone.
17:08:06 I think will some. I think my instinct is the same like no divergence in some way. Yeah, also tech burnout.
17:08:16 I think it's I think it probably is at the intersection of a lot of things, um, you know, doing there are accessibility limits to doing things live because of course some people aren't in the same time zone.
17:08:28 That was what I wanted to ask you actually well because I know we only have a couple of minutes left. Yeah.
17:08:33 Our decolonization colonization and technology mutually exclusive, one, and two, what do we do with the fact that we, you and I both use, you know, slack mighty networks Good job be zoom, we use technological tools including right now as we sit on them
17:09:00 to facilitate community like how do those things work together and how do we not feel icky about it, for sure. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
17:09:09 I think pre-colonial ality and technology would be mutually exclusive like, quite literally, there was no technology of the kind that we're talking about the computer oriented technology right but Declan reality guess it'd be helpful to say what that
17:09:21 really means is, essentially like.
17:09:24 It's an ideological understanding of the world that is based on relation ality, so it doesn't necessarily mean like, we're going to not have technology.
17:09:38 For me personally, what it means is, like, we should focus on the technologies that serve a purpose and that serve a really distinct function that supports care supports justice, etc.
17:09:50 So something like zoom this supports the ability for us to have this conversation which I think is meaningful support us and having, being able to teach the classes that we think are meaningful that kind of thing that has a function.
17:10:03 The kind of technology that I would like to see go away it's just like dumb apps that like no one really actually means that are taking up space where people could instead be spending that time in community with one another.
17:10:19 That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. So I think there's things that support life, there's technologies that support life and there's technologies that take away from life.
17:10:30 So for me, that's the difference there. And what was the second part of your question, and I don't remember but I do, because I'm the type of person who has to do this.
17:10:48 Our technology and decoupling ality mutually exclusive. Yeah. And then, oh and then I think you were saying like how do you kind of how do we not I think my question was really, like, if the goal.
17:11:00 Well, it was your visions but you know personally I was just wondering how that
17:11:07 sits with I mean I'm thinking of like metaverse right because I think a lot of people right now are feeling really dystopian and weird about the idea that we may soon be able to put on goggles, and like, enter a room with people, and honestly I sometimes
17:11:22 feel bad because the, the internet child part of my brain is like that sick. I don't want to do it on Mark Zuckerberg tool. But if somebody else built a tool if somebody that I trusted built a tool that allowed me to do that I actually think that would
17:11:36 be really cool because I immediately go to like, what if I could see the people I've been teaching zoom classes for two years like what if I could see people that I was, I've never even met most of the people that I've been in community with for years
17:11:51 I don't even know how tall. Everyone has at the beginning of the our next class next tomorrow night. We're doing. We already talked about it, and strategic intuition on Friday we're doing a.
17:12:00 I'm going to pull up a meal in a mirror like a jam board, and everybody's gonna have to put their name in there right and how because I had no idea so people, like they didn't know I was 520 Yeah, I know it's weird to me that you're really weird to me.
17:12:17 Five Seven in my mind.
17:12:19 That's amazing.
17:12:24 I think I'm just wondering yeah how, what we do with that tension. Right.
17:12:30 I mean something. There's another concept, really there's a different reality that I think about a lot which is this concept of the third way, which is essentially like again You can't go back to pre colonial times because we live in a capitalist world
17:12:42 like it happened colonialism happened is happening. So there's no way to go backwards, but there is a way to do is go forward in this vision of a third way we're like we don't have to be purely like in capitalism and colonialism, we don't have to be pre
17:12:56 colonial but there's a third way that takes into account both of those experiences collective experiences and forges a new path forward, that is, in support of our well being, etc.
17:13:09 Right.
17:13:10 And so I think I said that to say that I think that vision looks different for everyone.
17:13:16 And this is where I struggle to, because I think you want to be able to look, I want to be able to uphold certain values.
17:13:24 But at the same time.
17:13:27 I know that core to my values is liberation, and that means freedom of choice. So if people want that. Who am I to say no. Right. but at the same time.
17:13:40 I do think that these technologies cause a lot of harm, even on like climate level, like, the amount of resources that have to go into creating them just that alone.
17:13:51 is that really worth it I don't think so.
17:13:55 Um, or I think about, like, the on a psychological level, like what are these technologies doing to us and we've had many conversations about social media and what that does to us on a psychic level I mean, we as in me and you and also like on the collective
17:14:09 level, right.
17:14:11 Um, I met back in a phase, by the way, where I'm like, I'm going to delete Instagram, it's going to happen. So like I haven't used Instagram, I mean I don't.
17:14:19 Tick Tock stole all of my brain power.
17:14:21 Well, I can't do that either I know it.
17:14:26 Crazy.
17:14:28 So I think like what I'm trying to say is like it's personal choice but I guess like for me if I'm going to uphold the values that are important to me.
17:14:36 These there's no room for those kinds of things in my future now, or like in my vision of the future.
17:14:43 I just can't stick with the tools that actually again support, support life, but then again it's like, Who's to say what this doesn't support life.
17:14:56 There are some obvious answers but then there are some that are here.
17:15:01 Yeah, I like, I like the framing of a person like deliberate very personal choice of what it's worth it because I think that that's where a lot of the.
17:15:12 I that's where a lot of like, like you had said earlier, the thing that makes you not a cult leader, is that you give people back their own power that you help people on power.
17:15:23 So it feels like the sticking point is that personal choice, you know, and but also giving people the tools to evaluate whether or not something is worth it for them which feels like also being able to identify what are your own values, you know, and.
17:15:43 And how did those interact with the choice and the decision that you're making right now. Hmm.
17:15:49 Yeah. Interesting.
17:15:52 sticky stuff. Yeah. That stuff is sticky so for me, I think it'll, it's one of those things where like, I will continue to learn and get deeper into my own ethics as I go.
17:16:04 And then it will become clear for me but right now like I feel like I'm still in, I'm like, if we think about it almost that community framework level and like in the I'm in the listening phase of the collective on a macro scale right now, you know.
17:16:19 Yeah. And like, I can't know what the solutions are or.
17:16:25 I mean I can never know what the solutions are because I'm one person, but I can't even maybe even gear my questions yet. I maybe I'm in the first phase like the intention setting phase, right of like, what is the purpose we're driving towards like getting
17:16:41 more clear on that getting more clear on what is that vision that I hold for the future.
17:16:49 It feels like you got there in very much like the design thinking model or like the growth spiral model you got back to there because you are somebody who's been actively do like to hear you say that you're in stage one is almost jarring, you know, because
17:17:07 you've been doing it and you've built to really amazing communities and you're studying this thing and so it's like, it's almost that idea like I keep doing the infinity symbol with my hands but that like idea that once you once you do the thing you still
17:17:20 have to come back to stage one and start again, because that's how we get.
17:17:26 I think that's how we stay grounded and how that's where innovation really comes from the iteration. Exactly. I was gonna say like stage one and stage five or six or whatever it is the iteration phase are really the kind of the same thing.
17:17:37 It's like re internationalizing that purpose, over and over again so I guess that is kind of where I feel I am like on a macro macro level of building towards the collective future collected, like a community future.
17:17:52 I'm on a global level I guess like that feels I'm like always changing my mind about, You know what I actually envision there.
17:18:01 And then that is going to filter down into a more micro level of like how that's going to show up for me in interplay and an outer work and how it's going to show up for me in an interpersonal level in my daily life, right, like, it's all connected.
17:18:15 Same thing.
17:18:18 Hmm, yeah that's that's a big lesson.
17:18:21 Oh, well I, I appreciate you, chatting with me. I have been resisting in my personal life the inclination to want to wrap everything up with a very clean type bow to a conclusion, and I also just feel like I have no, I'm not sure of anything.
17:18:49 You know and like we don't always have to land somewhere that's where I've been at lately. Um, so I appreciate you coming and just talking about really big ideas and sharing against some of the like.
17:18:57 What was Roxanne always say that we're like crowdfunding your PhD or we're like, some that crowdsourcing like you're like, we're like getting it from you, we're getting a PhD to but only from listening to you as we're micro dosing my PhD, That's my that's
17:19:13 what it is micro dosing you PhD.
17:19:15 So I appreciate that. Yeah.
17:19:19 How might somebody who's listening and just fell deeply in love with you and your brain, stay connected with you, definitely still follow me on Instagram, Until I delete it.
17:19:33 And an airplane outer work if somebody just really, you can find all the links to all the things through my through my ID. That's why we say that one interplay at inner, outer dot work.
17:19:47 And all my all my links to both memberships are in my Instagram bio to amazing to my coaching into my consulting into all the different things, which that I mean I should say as one of your energy coaching clients, it is a very helpful thing, so I highly
