11:35:06 I'll just jump in and we can just be like, Hi, how are you today, I'm just gonna do it like we just started the call. Yeah, and if anything, if you wanted to.
11:35:15 If you feel like leader on having that bio would be helpful, you can always just record that separately, like, you know, Yeah, that's yeah that's what I was thinking too.
11:35:23 Um, okay cool so go ahead and get started
11:35:28 recording.
11:35:31 Okay. Hi, how are you, I'm good. How are you, I'm good, so excited to be chatting with you see it now that's just me not knowing what to do.
11:35:44 I'll cut it around. Anyways, um, so thank you so much for being here to chat with me and beyond the pretty decent podcast you're officially our first interview on the podcast so so grateful to have you here.
11:35:59 Do you want to start by just telling everybody who's listening, a little bit about yourself and the work that you do. Sure, sure. Yes. So my name is Dr Shelley Bowman, I am a preventive and lifestyle medicine physician based here in New York City, and
11:36:14 I have my own practice and that's mainly to help women of color with burnout.
11:36:20 And what made you so interested how did you end up in that, like working with burnout and working with women of color around burnout. Yeah, yeah, you know, it really, it really comes down to my own personal experience with burnout and mental health issues
11:36:35 in general. You know I have dealt with mental health issues on and off, over the years, ever since my mom passed from cancer when I was in college, But it was it wasn't until the beginning of 2020 so just before coded really hit the US.
11:36:52 I found myself in a pretty bad place, and the scary part was that I didn't realize it. So I you know I didn't realize it until I found myself one Friday evening rush hour, you know, standing at the edge of the subway platform, wondering if I should push
11:37:10 myself over the edge, you know, push myself into the train. And it was just that was such a pivotal moment for me. You know I had never experienced anything like that before.
11:37:21 And, and so to have been able to step away from that edge. Literally and figuratively, it, it took a lot. And, you know, I'm one of those folks who was so thankful to go into lockdown at the beginning of it because I needed that time and that space to
11:37:39 really heal and work on myself.
11:37:42 And it was during that time during that process that I just came to realize how powerful your mindset is when it comes to anything and everything that you do.
11:37:54 I like to say that mindset is medicine, especially when it comes to burn out because it can help you identify what the limiting beliefs are that are potentially fueling the burnout for you.
11:38:06 I'm so, so yeah, it was just such a powerful, you know experience for me and I learned so much from it that I want to make sure that I pass this on to other women of color in particular, you know, I don't want to.
11:38:19 No, I don't want to. I don't want anyone to end up at the edge of whatever platform they're standing on. So that's why I decided to start my practice platform wellness, you know, I just want to just want to help as many people like head with this.
11:38:32 Yeah. Well, that's it. I mean, that story so impactful and I feel like that metaphor of being on the platform whether literally, or just on kind of teetering on the edge is something that definitely feels like how burnout feels when it shows up like it's,
11:38:48 we get to that point so I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing. Um, so tell me a little bit more about like your life leading up to I guess you having this revelation, you were, you know, you obviously went to medical school you were a high achiever.
11:39:07 How do you think that played a role in how you are dealing with stress, I guess.
11:39:13 Yes, well you know i think it's two things. For me it was two things one I you know I am the daughter of an immigrant parents, you know, my family came from India, and especially with Indian parents, you know, they are really strict about doing well in
11:39:30 school and, you know, getting straight A's and all of that, um, you know, like a 99 is not enough, so I you know I that mentality was kind of drilled into me at a very young age, and and so that definitely played a role, and you know I will say to I think
11:39:47 a lot of times with folks who are do come from immigrant families, you know, our parents had to work so hard to get to where they are, that you know that's what they know to be success, they know that okay if you work this hard.
11:40:07 Then, you know, then you can achieve. And so it's like that is drilled into us as well. But, look, you you know you're, you're starting off at a disadvantage you need to you need to work extra hard in order to, you know, earn your seat at the table so.
11:40:21 So I think there was there was definitely a lot of that at play. Um, I will say, though, going back to that.
11:40:30 My experience in 2020.
11:40:32 During, you know, during my healing process. One thing that I came to realize was just how just how powerful colors of what's in terms of, you know, fueling my burnout.
11:40:47 So, you know, again I'm, I'm, South Asian, and I have dark skin and in our culture, having dark skin is considered, you're considered less that, if you have dark skin compared to someone puts fear skin, and I know that's true for other cultures as well.
11:41:03 But again, this is something that I absorbed at a really young age, and what what I didn't realize though is that that message that messaging turned into me, believing that I wasn't enough and and holding on to that belief as truth.
11:41:20 And so, that led me to, you know, try to attain perfection in anything that I did, whether it was, you know, in, in school or with singing lessons piano lessons, it didn't matter I, I always pushed myself and push myself so hard, because, again I held
11:41:40 on to this limiting belief that I wasn't enough. And you can say that I literally push myself to that edge of that of that platform.
11:41:49 So it wasn't, you know, what was so life changing for me was to realize that I could question, the limiting belief that it. You know, I could start to take it apart and and see that it wasn't true.
11:42:07 You know I would ask myself, just really basic simple questions like, Okay, what if I am enough. What if I've always been enough. What if I'm more than enough.
11:42:16 You know, it had never occurred to me, up until that point to even question, what I was thinking. And so, you know, it was a bad in particular was that was part of part of my personal experience and perhaps might resonate to some of the listeners, as
11:42:32 well.
11:42:33 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious, did you have the language at that point to call it burnout, or was it something that you discovered down the line as you started I'm assuming researching and, you know, getting really interesting clearly very passionate
11:42:48 in the subject.
11:42:50 Did you know to call it that, or did you see it as that and that moment.
11:42:54 Right, I short answer. Well, yes and no. Just being a physician burnout is such a common term that's used to just describe what workplace wellness is like in our profession.
11:43:09 so obviously familiar with the term of the concept.
11:43:12 So obviously familiar with the term of the concept. Um, and I do want to make the distinction to between burnout and depression and anxiety because you know what I was experiencing had gone well beyond burnout.
11:43:24 So, so I do want to do want to point that out but, um, but yeah you know I look I recognized that I was burned out but I didn't realize how bad it was.
11:43:36 You know, I thought that I could still keep pushing myself and didn't realize that that was literally not going to be possible. So, um, so yeah, this is a no for that one.
11:43:47 Yeah.
11:43:48 What is the distinction of burnout for, for those of us who may not have.
11:43:54 I guess language or the knowledge to distinguish it from something like being depressed or being anxious.
11:44:01 What makes it burnout what what distinguishes those things from one another. Right. That's a really great question. So, in 2019, the who recognized burnout as a syndrome.
11:44:13 And so it's a syndrome that occurs in the occupational setting, and it relates to chronic workplace stress that's not managed well. And in particular, there are three characteristics to look out for for burnout.
11:44:28 So the first is, you know, feeling depleted or drained so low energy that's the first, the second one is feelings of negativism or cynicism related to your work.
11:44:41 And then the third is decreased efficiency or productivity as it relates to your work. So those those three are the things to look out for if you feel like you might be experiencing burnout.
11:44:55 Hmm. That sounds so common, it's like sad how common that sound those three things sound and across. I mean I talked to people constantly about work, and it's like across disciplines across industries.
11:45:10 That seems to have, like, especially, you know, throughout the pandemic. It feels like those are that's almost like the general attitude that I hear about work is that kind of pessimistic, just like what, why am I doing it type of thing.
11:45:24 So that's really interesting yeah yeah you know it is just so ingrained in our culture and our society and, you know, I think that's why we're seeing things like the great resignation, for example, you know people are just realizing that they can't, you
11:45:38 know, this is not sustainable, the way that they were working before it's just not sustainable. And I have a funny example of this. So, at my previous job I would you know see a lot of executives for for health exams and for Lifestyle coaching.
11:45:54 And so, and these executives they would come from specific companies. Some of these companies had branches, you know, or other offices in other places like South America or Europe, and and so sometimes some of those folks would also come into to get their
11:46:09 physical exams annual exams. And it was so interesting talking to them because, you know, they would tell me I'm working for the exact same company, but my work in, you know, whether it was a Europe or South America or somewhere else.
11:46:25 You know my work. There is so much more enjoyable than the work I do here in in New York in New York City.
11:46:40 It just, it doesn't feel it's I feel like I'm not at the same company anymore I am working really long hours I'm not getting you no downtime, like I normally do.
11:46:46 So it's just, again, there's a really big cultural component to this as well.
11:46:52 Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like there's like a lot of, you know, intersection all components you've identified, whether through race, color, colorism.
11:47:03 I'm assuming socio economic status does there does burnout change depending on. I guess who the person is or who the work is do you see a lot of disparity or does it just kind of.
11:47:15 Is it just a general syndrome, I guess, yes, definitely you know people who are, I'll just say marginalized in general so women, people of color, you definitely see more of the trend of burnout higher in those in those groups, so it is it is disproportionate.
11:47:34 Yeah.
11:47:34 Yeah.
11:47:35 So what do we do, right, I guess my first question is, how do we know if we're burnt out. I know you had shared the three kind of things to look for it.
11:47:45 Is there a way that it shows up in our body is there something we can be doing kind of to, I guess, check in before we get past that point I know that's what a lot of your work now is centered around helping women of color do is they're kind of a check
11:48:01 in, we can do.
11:48:02 Yes No, it's a great question. I, you know, I, with the patients and clients that I work with, I created a framework or methodology that I call rest and rest stands for revive strive and thrive.
11:48:17 So it's, there are three parts to the framework and it's to really help you overcome burnout to handle stress and to restore energy, and so that first part revive of overcoming the burnout.
11:48:29 You know the three steps within that phase are to detect distress to secure space and to seek support, and we're kind of already started talking about that first step of detecting distress and and what you you know what you just mentioned in terms of
11:48:43 checking in with your body. That's one of the, You know that's one of the best things that you can do a lot of times it you know it's so easy for us to ignore the most obvious signs and symptoms.
11:48:57 So, you know, whether that's, you know, whether that's the back pain you've been experiencing for a while or your eye twitching or, you know, my greens, or eczema flare ups.
11:49:09 You know, a lot of times, unless there's a, you know, a medical condition, like an underlying condition that is causing your symptoms. More often than not, a lot of these a lot of these symptoms are related to increase stress or chronic stress.
11:49:26 And so, you know, that's why it's important to be able to get, you know, get your regular checkups, make sure that, you know, make sure that things are look okay in general.
11:49:36 And, you know, and if they do and if you still find yourself having just all these symptoms. You really got a question whether or not you know stress, it's, you know, playing the role here is the culprit here.
11:49:47 So yeah, definitely being able to check, check into your body check, you know, check for those signs and symptoms that's going to be one of the more important aspects in terms of figuring out if you're even dealing with burnout.
11:49:58 Hmm. And that's is that the revived portion are.
11:50:02 Yes, yes, it is the life portion. Yes. Amazing.
11:50:06 Cool. Um, I'm curious about something that I guess pop just popped into my head it's like I'm almost thinking about like the the ROI of doing this because I feel like when we are overworking or we're working in a way that isn't sustainable like you mentioned,
11:50:23 we're probably doing that. I know the times that I've done it it's like I do it because I don't think there's any one I don't know if there's any other way to do it.
11:50:31 And to, it feels like I have to do it maybe because I need money or, you know, I will. Yeah, usually because they need money right like that's the ROI on working too hard, is that you get.
11:50:42 Usually you get money out of it, which is a resource so we obviously can't really even live without at this point.
11:50:50 So, I guess what is the cost of doing that obviously well being is a part of it but also is there, you know, when we start to care for ourselves and manage stress differently and all of these things is there.
11:51:05 Is there a benefit is there is there another way is there a better way to be living on the other side of that. Yeah, yeah, I know that that's really great question and I don't have specific numbers off the top of my head for you, but I will say that this
11:51:19 definitely in the, in the corporate wellness space. This is such a hot topic right now because, you know, it is, it's really expensive for companies to deal with it, you know employee turnover and retention and all of that.
11:51:35 And so it is a, you know, it's, it's really important to them to make sure that their workforce as well. And because so many folks are burned out there's a lot more eyes on this issue.
11:51:49 You know you'll see a lot of companies now they'll have chief wellness officers as part of their C suite. So they recognize that this is, you know, this is hurting their bottom line and that they need to do something about it.
11:52:02 And, and again you see different companies kind of approaching this from, you know, from, from various aspects but but yeah it's it's definitely a hot topic in corporate wellness right now and and looked at, because of because of that ROI.
11:52:25 Wow. Yeah, I didn't even think about it corporate, I was thinking about like me, you know, it's that makes so much sense yeah but it would have a huge impact.
11:52:30 So is this you know obviously the solution is individual, and there's not one way to go about it but, you know, what do you recommend, like what do you want to see change in the world, what do you want to see happen differently so that the people that
11:52:43 you work with the women of color that you work with have a different experience than the one that you have.
11:52:51 Right, right. Yes, you know, for me, again, going back to that phrase mindset is medicine mindset being the best medicine for burnout. If I you know if I can pass that message on to other folks that would be that would be amazing because I don't think
11:53:06 we realize just how powerful we are.
11:53:11 A lot of times we feel powerless, you know we don't feel like we have any control over our situation, which, you know, a lie, you know, to an extent that's true, we don't have control over things that are happening externally in our environment.
11:53:27 But where we do have control is with our thoughts, and the reason why that's so powerful is because it's in psychology. This is called the cognitive triad, you know, your thoughts lead to your feelings, and then your feelings lead to your actions or behaviors.
11:53:45 And so what you think impacts how you feel and then how you feel impacts, what you, what you end up doing. And so if you're able to kind of get to that to hone in on on those thoughts on those limiting beliefs or dysfunctional beliefs, that's when you
11:54:03 can really start to make some changes you can you can realize, are you realize that you have agency and that you do have power in a situation, you know you can instead of reacting to situations, you can work thoughtfully respond to them.
11:54:18 And so, little by little, that gives you, you know, that gives you the the tools that you need to really to really deal with stress and burnout in general.
11:54:30 So yeah so that mindset piece. It is, it is a really important one, huh, yeah, that feels like a through line, you know almost through everything it's like any anything, any type of work that anyone's doing the way that they're thinking about it always
11:54:44 seems to play such a huge role and like the mindset aspect of it.
11:54:59 Yes, yes 100,000% Yes, yes, you know, and the thing is this.
11:55:08 This is a constant process a continual process, we always have to be checking in with ourselves, to make sure that we're okay.
11:55:19 I was just talking to a friend. This was a few months ago and. And I also was in a place where I was really getting burned out and she you know she reminded me.
11:55:28 Shelly you know i think that step restore routine that you talk about I think you might want to do some of that stuff and that step.
11:55:35 It sounds like you might need it.
11:55:38 And she was so right it just, it's so easy, it's very easy to fall, fall away from these from these things and so being able to constantly bring yourself back to be in a community where others can support you to have that accountability that's another
11:55:54 important piece of it too.
11:55:57 Yeah, this is, you know, this work, never ends. But the good thing is that it gets a lot easier. The more we do it. So, so there's a silver lining to it.
11:56:08 Hmm, yeah And the more we ask for help. I'm assuming I know that you offer support. You're based in New York, you have a practice that you've opened right do you want to tell us a little bit about, I guess your entrepreneurial journey and what you're
11:56:21 kind of starting to offer and I know you're thinking about a group program, things like that you want to spill the beans on that, yeah yeah no it's I'm going to be launching my own boutique practice solo practice again to help women color with burnout
11:56:35 so i'll be doing burnout screenings, specifically, as part of that practice and, again, based in New York City. So for those. For those of you who are, you know, in the area can check that out and.
11:56:48 And for those who might not be around New York City, I do have coaching services as well. so I'm going to be starting a group coaching program in particular.
11:56:58 And it's a it's a unique program because it utilizes both Lifestyle coaching and life design, or human centered design work to really give folks the tools and tips and techniques that they can use to, you know, to work on burnout and stress management
11:57:13 in general. So, yeah.
11:57:30 Because I know you're also a design thinker. You know how I love design thinking.
11:57:24 Does the way that we design our life have an impact on, I guess, to continue to use, like how close to that edge we get or how straight how much stress we take in like does the, I guess design of our life, in that sense.
11:57:40 Does, does that solve that problem does it, or does it at least contribute to it not getting so bad because I still get stressed out, even though I love my job I'm an entrepreneur I get to do most days I get to do the thing that I love to do, which is
11:57:53 like teach and talk and do things like this and write for a living. So it's not that I usually have, I mean, except like taxes.
11:58:01 I don't usually have something to complain about, you know, especially compared to. I'm always thinking well.
11:58:10 So many people that I know are in you know unfulfilling jobs or jobs that don't pay them a living wage or all of these situations so I'm always like well who am I to complain you know because I get to do the thing I love to do, but I still do experience
11:58:24 stress.
11:58:25 So I guess, answering my own question but in my experience I, I like to think that I probably have less because I have less existential dread over, spending time in a job I dislike but I also think it come, I mean entrepreneurship, I've read some studies
11:58:41 that suggests that entrepreneurs have higher levels of stress because all of that weight and responsibility is on us to make sure that the business keeps running.
11:58:51 So I'm curious like how does life design impact our relationship to, I guess work stress and burnout. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'll, I'll just say briefly about my own experience in terms of making that transition from being employed to then becoming my
11:59:10 own boss, it, it was a difficult transition it still is something that I'm trying to figure out or design, if we want to use that term that word.
11:59:22 Yeah, it's, you know, the great thing about design, in general, is that you, you know, it's not set in stone, you can be flexible you're always, you're always tweaking and experimenting you're prototyping, you know, and so that's, I think one of the,
11:59:41 you know, one of the things that that I like about design so much is that it gives you that tool of prototyping in particular it gives you that tool that you can use to, you know, to say okay let me let me try this schedule this week and see how this
11:59:57 works for me. And, and then you kind of go through week you figure out if that worked for you or not if it didn't make a little you know some changes and then, and then try something for the following week.
12:00:09 It's being able to design your lifestyle is, is so empowering and it's you know it's a it's a delicate balance when I, when I say design your lifestyle, I'm not necessarily saying that you control again control everything that's happening around you because,
12:00:24 because you can't, you know, things happen. And so, and we need to be able to respond to them in a, in a thoughtful way.
12:00:33 But being able to design your lifestyle can help you respond in, you know, in a way that's more true to you, versus reacting to something and, and, and then regret, you know, regretting it later on.
12:00:48 So, definitely.
12:00:50 Yeah.
12:00:51 But I think I was like my burnout story.
12:00:55 There's a couple of burnout instances that I've had, but one I particularly remember is, I was working as an executive assistant. And it was, you know, a big job because I was also doing marketing and online course creation for the same client and some
12:01:09 freelance work so I was just going going going. And I was reacting. I was kind of in a similar situation. My dad had passed, and I was responding to that with just work just filling my days filling my life with work, and I started making towards the end
12:01:26 of that job where I wasn't, you know I was wanting to do something else anyway I started making a lot of mistakes like I am particularly was making expensive mistakes.
12:01:36 Is that something that you see happen or that you experienced like I because I feel like for me that's a red flag.
12:01:44 Resentment frustration. And just like careless mistakes because to me mistakes mean I'm going too fast. That's what I kind of gathered from that, um, are there any other I guess your Is that true for you or your clients or and also Are there any other
12:01:58 kind of red flags like that that we can look out for.
12:02:01 Yeah yeah i think you know what you described it relates back to two of those characteristics that I that I mentioned at the beginning in terms of what to look out for for burnout those feelings of negativism and cynicism that definitely you know that
12:02:16 definitely shows, you know, or indicates that burnout might be might be president, and then that decreased productivity productivity or efficiency, effectiveness, that kind of relates to the making you know making mistakes because maybe you know maybe
12:02:34 you were doing the work just the way that you have always been doing it normally been doing it but it just it's not hitting that mark.
12:02:42 You know, or that bar that you typically set for yourself. So, so yeah definitely you know definitely can see that with other folks as well.
12:02:51 Yeah.
12:02:52 And just circle back to what you had mentioned earlier, the not enough fitness, the feeling like you're not enough, what do we do about that, like is that feels existential, as well, like if I don't feel like I'm enough and it's kind of this thing that
12:03:07 I've been carrying for a long time. What I know that that's negatively impacting the way that I'm feeling right like but maybe I feel like for me that's the thing that's always hard with mindset work is that, you know, when I pay attention to the thoughts
12:03:23 that are going through my head, it's not it's rarely literally, I'm not enough right so it's harder just to identify that thought because it's not so literal it's not verbatim it's like these like smaller insidious like, yeah, just little thoughts any,
12:03:40 any thoughts about that yeah yeah you know one exercise that I think is helpful and this is something that anyone can do, you know, you know, the journal or, or just, you know, with themselves.
12:03:51 Is the asking yourself why the five wise or the seven wise, you know, so if you, you know, if you have a certain thought, and then you just ask yourself, okay.
12:04:04 Why, why is that why is that the case. And then you answer the question, and then you ask why again. And then you ask why again and so on and so on and so after five to seven rounds or so, you get to believe the the heart of the matter of what's at the
12:04:18 root of the, you know, discomfort that you that you're feeling so that is that I'm not going to say it's an easy way to figure things out because it's not it's not easy work, but it is it's a simple, you know it's a simple tool that you can use to start
12:04:36 to uncover uncover those limiting beliefs for yourself. Hmm. Yeah. Wow, that's a really cool exercise and also it makes me wonder if toddlers are just really onto something like every child I've ever met plays like game all the time, yes yeah that's exactly
12:04:53 how, when I, when I described the exercise, I, I say, you know, or like we say in design assume a beginner's mindset channel your inner toddler, you know their kids, I learned so much from kids because they just, you know, the way that they see the world
12:05:10 is so different. Then, then how we do as adults and so again yeah channeling the inner toddler asking yourself, okay, well, why, why, why, that, that can definitely help kind of literally get you out of your own head, and start to start to deconstruct
12:05:27 to some things. So, yeah, I could, I just, that's making so much sense to me now because the thought that I probably have is like.
12:05:50 do that I don't have time but then asking why and asking why that that makes a lot of sense to me. So, just to, I guess, pivot slightly but just make it a little bit more specific for the people that I know are listening, are the people who tend to gravitate
12:06:02 towards my work and towards pretty decent tend to be people who want to work for themselves. so entrepreneurs and creative people who want to make a living doing the thing that they actually want to do all day, whether it be writing or painting or talking
12:06:18 to people, facilitating conversations, things like that.
12:06:22 So I guess I'm wondering how does this all relates does this intersect with creative work, like, Is there anything specific that those people as well you know we people should know about, about this topic.
12:06:37 Yeah yeah you know i, the word boundaries, comes to mind, and I think that's one of the most important concepts to keep in mind, especially when you're making the transition from, you know, working a nine to five to then you know doing your own thing.
12:06:57 It's, you know, when we're working for somebody else, we have these external boundaries in place. And then when you know once we're done with that and once we transition to doing our own thing, those boundaries are gone.
12:07:15 But, you know, so, because those boundaries aren't there. I, you know, I'll use myself as an example, I you know I found that I can work all day long and late into the night, you know, on my laptop, 10pm 11pm, you know, doing things and it's because I
12:07:35 am so passionate about the work I'm doing. Um, but, you know, I, you know, that's not it's not helpful to be working those you know for, for those hours for that much time because it again it's going to burn me out it's going to, you know, I'm going to
12:07:52 get tired. And so being able to set the boundary for myself of okay you know what I tend to four is going to be the time that I'm going to be heads down and doing work, not answering any emails or messages that come through.
12:08:18 I'm, you know, I'm going to do that and then, and then I'm going to close, you know, close the laptop at six or whatever, whatever it is.
12:08:14 Being able to set boundaries for yourself, is really really important when it comes to doing this type of work, because it's so easy, it's so easy to kind of get caught up in the work and then have it bleed into the rest of our lives.
12:08:32 So, yeah, yeah definitely boundary setting is.
12:08:38 Yeah, definitely. That was my experience when I, even I would say before I started working for myself because I was still working pretty heavy with one or two clients, and they were, I wasn't on their schedule but I was kind of on their schedule.
12:08:53 I noticed when I started working from home, that I would, it was it was almost like one extreme or the other, so either I'm just like, screw this, I'm not touching my computer today I can't stand a look at the screen, you know, no matter what happens,
12:09:08 I'm going for a walk and I just kind of, it's almost like yeah it's like one extreme or the other, or I'm like, Oh, I did that too many times and now I have to sit here and like almost channel that like college all nighter energy to to get through it,
12:09:25 and it's it's funny how like hard it's been to find the balance I guess in between those two extremes. Um, any anything that's worked for you or anything that you see work for your clients in terms of practically figuring out how to set those boundaries
12:09:41 like do you have a note on your phone or a calendar reminder anything like that. Yeah, yeah. So a couple of things. For me, one. Well, one just in general for, for all people that that might be listening, you know, work with your body like listen to the
12:09:58 rhythms of your own body. Your body is going to tell you when you're at your best and when you're not.
12:10:05 For me, the mornings are more productive. And so, I make sure to, you know, I do my best not to schedule, too many calls or meetings during that time because at least I know I can reserve a couple hours for some deep thought work that I might need to
12:10:21 do.
12:10:22 And so, you know, so, listening to your body. And I don't know if there are, if the majority of the folks listening are women or not but you know this is even true with something like a time of the month, year, you know, your body is going under undergoing
12:10:38 changes hormonal changes all month long, right, and so they're going to be some, you know, some days are some weeks where you feel, you know, a certain way and then other weeks where you don't.
12:10:49 And so again, listening to your body it's going to be really important when it comes to.
12:10:55 When it comes to setting boundaries, I think, I think the term that people use for this as biohacking your, your period, which I don't know I'm not in love with the term biohacking just because I feel like it.
12:11:07 I don't know I feel like if there's like a negative connotation to it or it implies that.
12:11:13 How do I put it that, you know, but there's something to fix, maybe there isn't necessarily anything to fix here it's just about understanding what the right rhythm is for you.
12:11:24 Um, you know, and so in listening to your body so that was one thing, and, and, you know, and meat for me in general in terms of what worked, I you know I really hate my phone, and my laptop and so any, you know any chance I have to close it or to do
12:11:43 work that's not related to a screen, I'll take advantage of so you know if that's journaling if that's doing stuff on a whiteboard.
12:11:53 I really, I really have to take step, you know, step back from my computer often because otherwise I just, I become a zombie. This like zombie blob in front of my screen.
12:12:07 Yes.
12:12:09 Yeah, I noticed that when I start like actively resenting I was thinking about that this morning I was like I got into doing this type of work because I love the internet.
12:12:18 I love being on the computer I think it's so cool that I can make friends online and do all these cool things. And so again, another red flag for me is when I'm presenting the tool that I've studied and used so much and gotten so passionate about for
12:12:31 my entire life.
12:12:33 When I'm presenting the computer. I'm like, okay, something's something's up I need to investigate that. Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. That's your, that's your mind that's your body telling you, you know, to take that step back, I'm giving you
12:12:47 that Qi you know one thing that I realized I mean we could talk about technology for a whole nother hour.
12:12:54 But one thing that I realized with our phones, you did you know that you could put it into grayscale that the.
12:13:01 I just saw that on Tick tock, I was like, and I did it for like a day and then I had to face time my boyfriend and I was like this is weird I feel like we're in an old movie so I turned it off.
12:13:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah no it's, uh, you know it may not work for as like a permanent change for folks but, um, you know even being able to change it to grayscale during the day or change it to grayscale during working hours, it makes the phone less than typing
12:13:23 so you're not, you know, checking things on Instagram or Tick tock, you know.
12:13:29 Yeah, you're not drawn to clicking on that little on that little icon so just anything small that you can do, turning off those notifications, keeping it in another room keeping it down even, you know all those little things help.
12:13:45 Yeah, not sleeping with fit in your bed and checking your email first thing in the morning, like, I sometimes do. Yes, yes. No, you are not alone.
12:13:54 Alone, oh yeah I know because when you look up when I know I've done so much email marketing that a lot of times when I was specially when I was in b2b and I needed to get like on the radar of, you know, my clients were agencies and they wanted to be
12:14:07 talking to decision makers at corporations and stuff I was like, oh, we'll send an email it's, you know, 6:45am, Eastern, so that that person is, you know, sitting in bed or there at the gym and they see that thing so it's like, logically I always know
12:14:21 that it's not just me but if it doesn't feel good when those things happen. And one more kind of just out of curious exploration question, because another thing that I think a lot of our listeners and community members have in common is some level of
12:14:38 nerdy urgency. And, you know, whether it's ADHD or being on the spectrum somewhere and so I'm wondering is there anything in particular that somebody who is narrow divergent may need to keep in mind about this because I know a lot of the time some of
12:14:52 the frustration is like, you know, people, they'll tell people will say to people with ADHD will use a planner and it's like, why can't you know because there's no.
12:15:00 Once I do it, you know that there's dope I mean in planning out the planner but these very little dope event and like actually following through with it.
12:15:08 So anything that that those folks should know as well.
12:15:11 Yeah, yeah, you know i one thing, definitely is to give yourself grace, you know, because, yeah, there. There's just so many solutions out there, but it's not a one size fits all, you know, we really have to play around with different solutions and figure
12:15:30 out what works for us especially, especially for the, you know folks that you've described.
12:15:35 And the other thing, too, that I'll say is knowing when to get the help of professionals, is also is also important. You know, if you really find that you are struggling in the work that you're doing, then it could be helpful to, you know, enlist the
12:15:54 help of providers, whether it's someone like a therapist or, you know, or a physician, you know, there are you know use them as resources because that is going to help you in the long run.
12:16:06 So, yeah. Absolutely.
12:16:09 Well thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us, Dr Bowman, is there anything else, or I guess the better question is how do we, you know, for the person who just fell in love with you and wants to work with you where can they find you and.
12:16:25 And yeah, how do we stay in touch. Yes, Shelly Bowman, calm my website that is the best place to find me to reach me all the information about getting the personal burnout screenings or doing coaching it's all, it's all there for you.
12:16:41 So, yeah, Shelly Bowman, calm, amazing, and New York practice coming soon. Yes, New York, based in New York City so amazing.
12:16:51 All right, well thank you again so much for, for being on the podcast for being my first official interview.
12:17:00 I guess to close us off. Are there any other quick tips or anything that actually a better question.
12:17:07 If you could go back to your younger self maybe you know late 2019 early 2020 and tell that person anything.
12:17:18 What would you say that's such a.
12:17:22 That's such a powerful question.
12:17:29 Um, maybe something like.
12:17:33 You can change this narrative.
